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KC
5 Mar 2008, 5:53 pm
really. honestly.
guys, there is nothing redeeming about japanese or japan and it's culture. it's a racist group of people. you go there, and i bet you a thousand bucks you'll get dirty looks, or be disallowed into certain areas, or be discriminated against. It doesn't matter what race you are, if you're american, you're rosa parks. If you're a foreigner and you're a whitey, hey sucks to be you "gaijin". The japanese culture is backwards, and the racism and injustice so ingrained into it, theres no way out.
Please take some time and read about the rape of nanking.
Nanking Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre)
Check that ****. 500,000 people dead. thats in one ****ing incident.
Babies getting thrown in the air and caught on bayonets? That is some really ****ing ****ed up ****. like holy ****ing ****.

Take some time, look up the relations of japan with other asian countries. the answer is NOT ****ING GOOD. theres a goddamn reason for it. please, look that **** up.

And even onto the language, it's from the ****ing moon. You could take ten years of college level japanese, and you'd only be at the level of a four year old in terms of language usage and literacy. The grammar is so **** backwards and the usage of symbols so complicated, that it's like trying to program an entire operating system using only ones and zeroes. It's antequated and useless.

There are no redeeming aspects to japanese language use compared to latin based languages, and japanese culture is revolting and it's people disgust me.

Quoted from another thread.

Gunpla God
5 Mar 2008, 5:59 pm
dear me someone certainly has issues:p but seriously I have afriend who is Japanese and he doesnt shoot me dirty looks like Im scum.

and those people that do and wont let you into the onsen one word:conservatives :oits just like the USA imagine that:wtf:

Kioswan
5 Mar 2008, 6:11 pm
Bah, everyone knows that the nanking massacre is just a lie made up by the U.S. during war time to serve as propaganda against the Japanese. It's just being used these days for all the usual reasons people won't let old **** go.
Also everyone does that kind of stuff during war time for good reasons. BEING THAT THEY WANT TO, AND WON'T GET A CHANCE OUTSIDE OF IT TO BRUTALLY HARM INNOCENT PEOPLE. Everyone sorta dreams about it at one point or another, and hell; if you raise a kid to be that way, then they will be. I've seen American troops in Iraq taunting kids with bottles of water, riding on the backs of the trucks as the kids chase them begging for some; while the troops are there just laughing their asses off.

Japanese is a language Isolate, the only ones actually being related to it are stuff like Okinawan, and other islands Japan has conquered. Also Japanese isn't that hard to follow, yeesh, it's all particles and SOV. The only reason you'd be so crappy from 10 years of college in ANY language would be passing with the lowest possible scores and whatnot.
On a some what funny note, the language is actually fairly easy to pronounce, but that isn't helped by their 6000 character kanji writing system.

The point is, Japan isn't really all that different from a lot of other countries. As for what they are to the western powers? Probably just some giant buffer point for jumping into enemy territory. (China, North Korea, Russia.) You know, sorta like Israel is for the middle east.

Fuzileer
5 Mar 2008, 6:30 pm
About that massacre thing - think of how many people the Nazis killed.
Few know that Stalin killed more than Hitler dead.
The crusades?
There are so many more massacres that are not noticed but have resulted in thousands of death.

LordOkageSpencer
5 Mar 2008, 6:38 pm
true. Take it from a person who was there a few years after the war ended in Russia. It was heck, and it was because the Russian government was way over the top with their pride. I saw a place where they did a mass attack, and shot their retreating soliders.....more soliders died that way then by enemy fire.

Gunpla God
5 Mar 2008, 6:48 pm
and besides depending on what youre goal is such occurences can be a good thing say if you want to break the morale of a people.

Wulf Dagov
5 Mar 2008, 7:23 pm
Ha.

You suck.

This thread sucks.

Your quote sucks.

A joke? Fine.

But not here.

Gunpla God
5 Mar 2008, 9:32 pm
and youre on an anime forum.:bang:

Wulf Dagov
5 Mar 2008, 9:45 pm
That too.

Okazaki Tomoya
5 Mar 2008, 9:46 pm
true. Take it from a person who was there a few years after the war ended in Russia. It was heck, and it was because the Russian government was way over the top with their pride. I saw a place where they did a mass attack, and shot their retreating soliders.....more soliders died that way then by enemy fire.

What in bloody hell are you talking about?




Yes, in Japan you will ge todd looks. Younger Japanese would be less inclinded to do so than their elders, and city folk who are used to foreign tourists and investors will treat them much more kindly than those in less traveled areas. A knowledge of Japanese culture would be helpful, as well as customs and whatnot. I highly recommend the Culture Shock series of books, as they happen to cover many aspects of daily dealings with Japanese people.

Your God
6 Mar 2008, 1:07 am
Okay, I'll just throw in my two cents.

First of all Nanking Massacre - DID happen. Contrary to bias belief. In fact Japan committed a long list of war crimes that'd make Nanking look like a misdemeanor. And what Fuzileer said about the Nazis, don't forget in WWII Germany and Japan were allies. And their actions were every bit as brutal as the Nazis, they merely lacked the numbers.

Human Experimentation (Look up Unit 731)
Comfort Women (I.E. Forced Prostitution)
Cannibalism
Unnecessary Starvation

But with that said, no country is without blood on its hands. Our country has committed acts that I personally disapprove of during that same war. And you can hardly condemn the younger generations for what happened before they were born.

I don't believe it's fair or rational to judge an entire country and its people based on the actions of its government alone. A government that isn't even in practice anymore, granted because we forced them to change but still, it's not in practice.

And as for the Japanese people who hate foreigners, we have plenty of people like that here, they're everywhere. Hell, I'd be willing to bet that if I went to England, and was open about my nationality, people wouldn't take too kindly to me.

Not sure on what to say about the language, never really had a chance to try and learn it.

Kioswan
6 Mar 2008, 10:06 am
I still don't believe in the Nanking massacre, mainly because out of all the worse **** Japan did; everyone has chosen to sit around birching about this one for 35 years.
I know they did crap a lot worse than this, so it's just really off that they would choose this specific event to crap themselves over.

They did do stuff like line up.. ahh forget it. This is all SSF anyway.

Molon_UK
6 Mar 2008, 11:16 am
Japan on the whole is not kind to foreigners, but that's more to do with the laws there and not the people, though there are certain groups of people there (like anywhere) that are racist.

I was born there, and when my parents died I was put into an orphanage where I was singled out due to being mixed race, and so I was moved to England. I went back to Japan (briefly) in December 2006, and was not treated badly at all.

They are a very xenophobic country on the whole though, and anyone who wants to live there should expect to have to put up with odd looks and being treated differently.

Rasberry
6 Mar 2008, 11:31 am
Moved to a more serious subforum, the SSF rules now apply to this thread!

Mr.Anderson
7 Mar 2008, 9:48 am
Though I admit that the character reading and all is really though (I can't do it) but in a small amount of time I've been able to learn a respectable amount of Japanese words and can have (very?) small talk with a Japanese person (even if my pronounciation is a bit off and not totally gramatically perfect). Heck I know more about Japanese grammer then of my own language or English (maybe even together).

I guess that, with seeing Asian, American, all kinds of European and English people at every corner of the street I don't look so odd against being the odd one out.

And of course there's their culture, there are certain things you just have to know (or would be really helpfull). Knowing how to adress different people is defenitly a must as with customs. The all known 'itadakimasu' before eating and those simple things show good manner when you do it, or mark you for anti social for not doing so :P (don't trust me on the anti social thing here xD).

☼Pepe☼
8 Mar 2008, 2:45 am
*ehem*
Cultural Relativity.
All cultures are different in their own way, and there is no universal standard to judge a culture as either socially immoral or socially moral.

No culture is truly better than another.

And we all have the freedom to choose what culture is best for us... :P

Your God
9 Mar 2008, 1:30 am
^ Simple yet undeniably true.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I still don't believe in the Nanking massacre, mainly because out of all the worse **** Japan did; everyone has chosen to sit around birching about this one for 35 years.
I know they did crap a lot worse than this, so it's just really off that they would choose this specific event to crap themselves over.

They did do stuff like line up.. ahh forget it. This is all SSF anyway.

You have a point there. But I don't think it was the US trying to justify their fight against Japan. We had all the justification we needed when they bombed Pearl Harbor.

Grey Fox
11 Mar 2008, 2:11 pm
*ehem*
Cultural Relativity.
All cultures are different in their own way, and there is no universal standard to judge a culture as either socially immoral or socially moral.

No culture is truly better than another.

And we all have the freedom to choose what culture is best for us... :P

I agree with Pepe.
Having Been Japan for numerous weeks and living in england as a half chinese, i receive racist comments and hair-pulling and insulting comments in england and not at all in japan so that tells you something, oh and it's cleaner too.
Secondly blah blah blah about the war. In war nothing is restricted and everything is permitted.


IF you win the war, nobody cares.
If you lose the war, you'll never hear the end of it.

So the summarize:


Don't bother trying to disuade me from what i want, or tell me how you think things, should happen.
Because you're not me.

Sakurazaki
11 Mar 2008, 3:52 pm
Honestly I don't shoot people looks. Yes, I'm JP. I don't mind if you are foreign or not. -_-' So I can't help but say that KC's quote....was really...just ugh. It disgusts me the way the person who said it put it.

I go to a international school, and trust me, no one says anything racist there. In fact, there's quite a few people that I'm friends with who are not Japanese, and I don't treat them any different because of their race. I say if you are going to comment about it, don't accuse people as a whole, please. ^.^'

Mr.Anderson
11 Mar 2008, 4:17 pm
I'd like to, but I've got nothing to add anymore. It's exactly as everyone says. ( I am of course refering to the people saying that it's no big deal )

Molon_UK
11 Mar 2008, 4:56 pm
Having Been Japan for numerous weeks and living in england as a half chinese, i receive racist comments and hair-pulling and insulting comments in england and not at all in japan so that tells you something

I'm pretty much the opposite to this. While there were no racist comments or physical abuse, during my time in Japan I was definately treated differently to the people who weren't mixed race. I'm half American, half Japanese, and was treated as a 'white person' rather than as a Japanese person, despite the fact I was born there. My only point in saying this is that there are always going to be those who are racist in any country, and unless you've lived there I'm not sure you can comment on how you're treated. My circumstances were certainly not normal either, as I spent a good deal of time at an orphanage where someone has to be the bottom of the food chain, and unfortunately because of my race that had to be me.

Also, I think England is getting far more tollerant to other races as there are so many living here, which I love. Japan doesn't have that big a migrant population, whereas we here have a huge one, and then as they settle their children grow up here meaning the genepool becomes even more diversed. We're used to the different races, the Japanese are not (or at least not as much) and so of course they're not going to react the same way.

In conclusion, it's no big deal, I know I'm making generalisations here but just look at Sakurazaki's post. She's fine with other races and cultures.

"The voice of a nation cannot speak for it's citizens."

Grey Fox
11 Mar 2008, 5:09 pm
I'm pretty much the opposite to this. While there were no racist comments or physical abuse, during my time in Japan I was definately treated differently to the people who weren't mixed race. I'm half American, half Japanese, and was treated as a 'white person' rather than as a Japanese person, despite the fact I was born there. My only point in saying this is that there are always going to be those who are racist in any country, and unless you've lived there I'm not sure you can comment on how you're treated. My circumstances were certainly not normal either, as I spent a good deal of time at an orphanage where someone has to be the bottom of the food chain, and unfortunately because of my race that had to be me.

Also, I think England is getting far more tollerant to other races as there are so many living here, which I love. Japan doesn't have that big a migrant population, whereas we here have a huge one, and then as they settle their children grow up here meaning the genepool becomes even more diversed. We're used to the different races, the Japanese are not (or at least not as much) and so of course they're not going to react the same way.

In conclusion, it's no big deal, I know I'm making generalisations here but just look at Sakurazaki's post. She's fine with other races and cultures.

"The voice of a nation cannot speak for it's citizens."
Well rather the whole racist thing is a mixed bag as well i'm sure the people who get that sort of thing do something that makes them look lazy or unreliable first.
And no England is most certainly NOT tolerant of foreigner, trust me on it.
Some 'tards call me paki even though i'm half chinese. And it's the subject of many jokes and sh¡t e.g. me getting swamped by oldest year rugby team for 'not going back to china' which resulted in me leading them away from my friends to be pushed into a large bush and stamped on until i kicked one of them to the ground, got scraped on my face across the pavement, kick myself loose again and ran.

So if that sounds like a country tolerant of non-white people then tell me so i can hit you. These days it's not really the extreme black or white thing in racism in the area's i see, just being neither is the problem, i've been bullied by other people who are only half english too and to be frank, i think they're a bit too english, in the new sense of the majority of the population. I hate my country and i hate the age i live in. The words in my sig have meaning, they aren't just for decoration.

Molon_UK
11 Mar 2008, 5:18 pm
I know the whole country isn't tollerant, and I guess it's a regional thing too, as there will ALWAYS be racists around in EVERY country. That will never change unfortunately. In my area, there has never been much of a problem with racism. A few small incidents involving a few idiots, but overall it's been very pleasant.

Just out of interest, where abouts in the UK are you from, if you don't mind my asking. The general picture painted is that the further north you are the worse the racism is, and again the further away from majour cities you get the worse it becomes. I'm about halfway up the country and live in an urbanised rural area, basically a small town but clsoe to a city.

Also, I am sorry for the racist remarks you have recieved, I really am. Remember that not everyone is like that, and as you get older your peers will be more select. School is hell for anyone who's different, I know. It will hopefully only get better as you progress as most of the racist ones tend to be idiots with tiny IQs who are only looking to pick on someone so no one picks on them. It sucks, but that's just the way it is/will always be.

Grey Fox
11 Mar 2008, 6:54 pm
I know the whole country isn't tollerant, and I guess it's a regional thing too, as there will ALWAYS be racists around in EVERY country. That will never change unfortunately. In my area, there has never been much of a problem with racism. A few small incidents involving a few idiots, but overall it's been very pleasant.

Just out of interest, where abouts in the UK are you from, if you don't mind my asking. The general picture painted is that the further north you are the worse the racism is, and again the further away from majour cities you get the worse it becomes. I'm about halfway up the country and live in an urbanised rural area, basically a small town but clsoe to a city.

Also, I am sorry for the racist remarks you have recieved, I really am. Remember that not everyone is like that, and as you get older your peers will be more select. School is hell for anyone who's different, I know. It will hopefully only get better as you progress as most of the racist ones tend to be idiots with tiny IQs who are only looking to pick on someone so no one picks on them. It sucks, but that's just the way it is/will always be.

By the south actually, large urbanised area

Solo
11 Mar 2008, 9:56 pm
Bah, everyone knows that the nanking massacre is just a lie made up by the U.S. during war time to serve as propaganda against the Japanese.


It's kinda hard to let go of tens of thousands of innocent civilian deaths.

And it's not propaganda, it is fact.

Or would you rather believe all those civilians just dropped dead of their own accord, for entirely unrelated reasons, and buried themselves?

I fail to see how a reasonable human being can, after a review of the evidence at hand, dismiss the many thousands of war crimes against civilians as merely "US propaganda made up against the Japanese", especially as there were eye witnesses. There is just so much evidence backing it up.

Go here and give it a look through. Tell me what you think. Japanese Army's Atrocities -- Nanjing Massacre (http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/)

Look at the photos. Then, if you can, tell me nothing happened.

It is rather like dismissing the Holocaust as US propaganda.

Contrary to your beliefs, the Nanjing Massacre isn't the only war crime people harp on. it is just the one you hear about.

A little fact checking will go a long way in removing your ignorance of the situation at hand.


Now keep in mind I'm being polite here, as I see that you are ignorant, not and idiot. Ignorant people don't know better. Idiots see the evidence and ignore it to preserve their worldview.

I hope I am right in judging your ignorant, and not an idiot.

Molon_UK
11 Mar 2008, 10:12 pm
By the south actually, large urbanised area

Then I appologise for my generalisation. My opinion still stands though that as a nation England is far more tolerant than the Japanese, and certainly as far as the law is concerned imigrants to Britain have far more rights than ones to Japan.

Gunpla God
12 Mar 2008, 12:15 am
Also age should be taken into account as a 60 year old usually wont be as tolerant as a teenager. Also their poltical views should be taken into account as a member of the LDP probably would be less friendly to a Gaijin than a liberal.

Kioswan
12 Mar 2008, 12:21 am
I see the photos, I see some dead people, but nothing that really convinces me to be honest. Mainly due to the fact that they could have been taken from any place.
Maybe it'd help if I knew what Nanking looked like. They just look like a bunch of old war happening photos to me though.

Contrary to your beliefs, the Nanjing Massacre isn't the only war crime people harp on. it is just the one you hear about.
That's one of the reason I'm not really convinced about it either.

Solo
12 Mar 2008, 8:32 am
I see the photos, I see some dead people, but nothing that really convinces me to be honest. Mainly due to the fact that they could have been taken from any place.
Maybe it'd help if I knew what Nanking looked like. They just look like a bunch of old war happening photos to me though.

That's one of the reason I'm not really convinced about it either.

It appears I was correct in my initial assessment.

Keep in mind the reason people keep bringing war crimes up is that what the Japanese did was truly horrendous, and old wounds take a lot of time to heal. Even then, they will leave scars.

Now, Nanking was/is a prosperous city. The name means, literally, southern capital. I believe it was used as a capital for some dynasty or the other a long time back.

During WW2, it was devastated by the Japanese. The evidence is irrefutable, and your denial of it is rather like watching an American deny the Holocaust. I never ceased to be amazed that people like you still exist.

Come on, what more do you want? You know it is in line with Japanese behavior, you know that there is physical evidence, you know there are still living eyewitnesses, you have read the academic research into this, from multiple universities (I assume you have, at least. One should not come to such an outrageous opinion without knowing the facts, right?)... what more do you want?

The Nanjing Massacre is an indisputable fact. It happened and left it's mark on the city, and it's people.

There are links, there is evidence. You can find it all on the net, and on prominent websites.

You really could stand to learn a little.

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Nanjing remembers massacre victims (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7140357.stm)

You want to call up the survivors and tell them they are all lying, that their dead friends and family never existed?

Now, you probably won't have the time or the open-mindedness to read this book, but you can glance at it.
The Nanjing Massacre: A Japanese ... - Google Book Search (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=_H0JEjAqMcsC&dq=nanking+massacre&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=HXdpY8sjan&sig=tSuYTXsetyk7-EQvMUwHB7_9css#PPR5,M1)


ps. As you should know, conspiracies rarely hold up. If the US manufactured this story, we would know this by now. There have been so many investigations into this atrocity that it would have been impossible for them to have not found out it was fake, if it was a hoax.

pps. If you want photos of the city, just google it. nanking city photos - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?q=nanking+city+photos&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

Really, it's not that hard. I'm surprised you didn't think to do it.




Anyways, that's about as much as can be said over the Internet to someone who doesn't accept it as real.

Have fun thinking it over.

Kioswan
12 Mar 2008, 12:45 pm
Now, you probably won't have the time or the open-mindedness to read this book, but you can glance at it.
I saw it was written by an American living in Japan pretty much. Seeing as how he tells about how he interrogated Japanese POWs.


You want to call up the survivors and tell them they are all lying, that their dead friends and family never existed?
An interesting link, but how do I know that they're survivors opposed to liars? They could just as easily be playing a role in the lie as well.


pps. If you want photos of the city, just google it.
Those are all modern day photos, I'd need photos of the old day Nanking before the Japanese supposedly "RAPED" it.


ps. As you should know, conspiracies rarely hold up. If the US manufactured this story, we would know this by now. There have been so many investigations into this atrocity that it would have been impossible for them to have not found out it was fake, if it was a hoax.

Well, if the Chinese agreed it was a good thing for them, and to keep it up, and the US didn't want to admit to creating such a story, then both sides could easily say it's true. Really the governments of either country don't have to let people know anything if they don't want to. If someone snoops around where the governments don't want them to be, then they could just kill them. Simple as that. Mainly because the governments have all the power, not us.

Also why should I trust some college research? They're probably biased about the whole deal anyway.

I have YET to see any real physical evidence, other than photographs which could easily be faked, or taken from somewhere else.

Sorry man, your argument just isn't doing it for me. I'm not trying to be narrow minded or anything, but this is all the same stuff that everyone tries to use.

Grey Fox
12 Mar 2008, 1:53 pm
It's kinda hard to let go of tens of thousands of innocent civilian deaths.


And now for something completely different:
People die. Loads of people die.
Murder, age, sickness accidents, war, everyone dies, there are no exceptions no matter who or what you are, when or where.
War hides many killings of non-combatants and is one life's few certainties, as long as there are more than 1 kind of people there will be conflicts, murders and killing. And there is no way to stop the fact that it did, does and will happen.

It's just surprising that people can run around with meager knowledge seeing only a small part of the picture acting like their justice is absolute, when there is nothing absolute. So why should one killing, one act, one crime be focused upon? there are more people dead throughout the last century than the current world population. If anyone wants anything they should forget these things and move on rather than stand still swinging blind punches at each other. If you want to hate something go ahead it only strengthens the chains of hate and perpetuates the cycle you lock yourself in. If you forget the loss, the death and the life and allow selfish attachments to flow from your life, perhaps you can see clearly. It seems to me that in this age and in this world that would be a fine accomplishment to achieve before you die.

shinmeiryuuX
12 Mar 2008, 5:29 pm
guys don't anyone dare say the nanjing massacre didn't occur. as people before said it would be like The United states denying the holocaust. One of my grandparents lived there during WW2 and she told me how awful it was, the rapes, the murders. if you wanted proof i think you have it.

Grey Fox
12 Mar 2008, 6:10 pm
again rape and murder is one of the more common parts of war converging across urban area, unless you have a really ****ing huge barren wasteland between the forces some people are going to be killed, and rape is a given. war isn't glamorous it's only inevitable.

KC
13 Mar 2008, 12:42 am
And now for something completely different:
People die. Loads of people die.
Murder, age, sickness accidents, war, everyone dies, there are no exceptions no matter who or what you are, when or where.
War hides many killings of non-combatants and is one life's few certainties, as long as there are more than 1 kind of people there will be conflicts, murders and killing. And there is no way to stop the fact that it did, does and will happen.

It's just surprising that people can run around with meager knowledge seeing only a small part of the picture acting like their justice is absolute, when there is nothing absolute. So why should one killing, one act, one crime be focused upon? there are more people dead throughout the last century than the current world population. If anyone wants anything they should forget these things and move on rather than stand still swinging blind punches at each other. If you want to hate something go ahead it only strengthens the chains of hate and perpetuates the cycle you lock yourself in. If you forget the loss, the death and the life and allow selfish attachments to flow from your life, perhaps you can see clearly. It seems to me that in this age and in this world that would be a fine accomplishment to achieve before you die.


I wasn't going to post in this thread on the grounds of watching it, but you sir are an idiot.

Nanjing was not the only atrocity comitted by the japanese. There were loads of them in WW2, think bataan if you need another one. And this isn't just one killing. this is almost a million dead. Try to think that. you're one person. you probably live in a little town of around ten thousand. try to imagine your town gone. try to imagine more than that. try to imagine those ten thousand times X people. Thats not exactly something small, is it sherlock.

Forgive and forget is fine when somebody hits you in the arm.

Not when nearly 1 million die.

™
13 Mar 2008, 12:55 am
Now now mr keicanad, everyone can have their POV, doesnt mean their right. Remember that we're not allowing insults here. Next time, you'll be kicked, etc :P

Gunpla God
13 Mar 2008, 1:07 am
everyone wants to b**** about Nanking and the Holocaust but what about the Trail of Tears ? what about when Richard the Lion hearted massacred hundreds of Men Women and children POWs because he was tired of waiting for a trade? I pressed my roommate about it and his response was ultimately "it was in the nineteen hundreds people are more civilized" like time somehow makes it bad . also this "never forget Nanking "thing is a load of crap people are brainwashed to keep grudges even though they never ex. it

Solo
13 Mar 2008, 2:22 am
I never said I approved of any of those acts either.

We are not discussing them here, though, because that is not the topic of this thread.


I saw it was written by an American living in Japan pretty much. Seeing as how he tells about how he interrogated Japanese POWs.
Accounts from firsthand witnesses aren't enough for you?

Yeah, they could be faked, but it's not likely that the mountains of evidence we have is all fake.

All you have supporting your position is "Umm.. I don't think it's real, it may be fake, and I can't find any proof of it since it happened so long ago, so I'm not going to believe it."


An interesting link, but how do I know that they're survivors opposed to liars? They could just as easily be playing a role in the lie as well.

Yes they could, but how likely is it?

For a lie of this magnitude to be fabricated, it would require the co-operation of three countries and thousands of people and accounts. Nothing like it has ever been done in the history of humanity because the effort involved is so vast.

You seriously suggesting this vast conspiracy not only took place, but held up for more than half a century?


Those are all modern day photos, I'd need photos of the old day Nanking before the Japanese supposedly "RAPED" it.

Are you seriously suggesting Nanjing was a burned, bombed, and looted hellhole before the Japanese came?

No, it was not the case. Nanjing was actually a nice city, with a population of foreigners living in it. When the Japanese invaded, the foreigners got into groups in safe zones, and managed to take pictures and later show it to the outside world. They also kept diaries of what occurred. This is what researchers use to determine what happened or not.


Well, if the Chinese agreed it was a good thing for them, and to keep it up, and the US didn't want to admit to creating such a story, then both sides could easily say it's true. Really the governments of either country don't have to let people know anything if they don't want to. If someone snoops around where the governments don't want them to be, then they could just kill them. Simple as that. Mainly because the governments have all the power, not us.
Pure fantasy. This sort of thing doesn't happen in real life, otherwise there would never have been a Watergate in the US, the news of Tiananmen would have never reached the Western world from China in 1989, and we would not have human rights groups poking their noses into China's prisons and reporting on their horrible conditions.

If the power of the government was so vast, as you claim, it seems bizarre that they would allow so many things to happen to them that could so easily be prevented by their "enormous powers"

Your argument does not hold up, for it creates a type of government that is inconsistent with what has been observed in this world. If the governments of China and the US were so powerful as to be able to fabricate these horrendously complex hoaxes and kill anyone who threatened them, the implications would be that China would not have an issue with people investigating it's track on human rights abuses, and the US would have been able to quell dissent over the Iraq war by assassinating the right people, and manufacturing evidence that Saddam had WMDs and ties with bin Laden, which they have not done.

Besides, you don't think people would get suspicious when every person seeking to find the truth about the Nanking Massacre was found dead shortly after they started probing?

Come on, think logically.


Also why should I trust some college research? They're probably biased about the whole deal anyway.
A baseless accusation. I am disappointed in you. You should know that such broad generalizations are inherently incorrect.

You can trust (or be confident that they are relatively trustworthy) things like peer reviewed college journals because their standards of proof are very stringent. If something is wrong, it will likely be pointed out by others, a counter point paper written, the issue debated, etc. This happens all the time in academic journals. Bias does not easily enter into a reputable and professional one. You should know this.


I have YET to see any real physical evidence, other than photographs which could easily be faked, or taken from somewhere else.
You can't possibly know this, so I forgive you, but several places in the photos were confirmed to have existed by investigators at the time, and there are landmarks in the photos that can be matched to places in Nanking.

For example, the photo of the Japanese troops marching into the city clearly shows one of the city gates behind it, the southern gate if my memory serves me correctly.


Sorry man, your argument just isn't doing it for me. I'm not trying to be narrow minded or anything, but this is all the same stuff that everyone tries to use.
Sorry man, your argument just isn't doing it for me. I'm not trying to be narrow minded or anything, but this is all the same stuff that people like Holocaust deniers try to use.


You may find this interesting to know, but there was next to no information/very little information on the Nanking massacre in the West for 60 years after it happened, until Iris Chang wrote a book on the topic. (Citation: Johns Hopkins Magazine -- November 1997 (http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/1197web/nanking.html))

Clearly, there was this massive, multinational conspiracy to fabricate and maintain a conspiracy of a massacre that never happened so that it would go unnoticed for 60 years.... yeah.

Note the following pieces of information from the article, a Johns Hopkins piece. (Johns Hopkins, btw, is a prestigious college, best known for their medical school.)

"To piece the story together, Chang examined primary source materials in four different languages (with the help of translators): Chinese, Japanese, German, and English. She read diary accounts of American missionaries and medical workers who were in Nanking at the time.[b] She looked at photos and film footage that had been smuggled out of China. She combed articles that appeared in Japanese, English, and American newspapers. [b]She corresponded with a former Japanese soldier who had taken part in the massacre. She examined reams of U.S. and German military communications. And she spent more than a month in Nanking, touring massacre sites and interviewing Chinese survivors."

Apparently, the Japanese reported to the Germans what was going on too. Unless, of course, those German documents are fabrications? I fully expect to hear that kind of argument from you, given your past statements.

"In his diary, Rabe writes with riveting detail about being on call day and night to stop rapes in progress, of providing safe haven to hundreds of Chinese women in his backyard, of delivering rice amid gunfire. To the Chinese he became "the living Buddha of Nanking"--the man who gave new mothers in the safety zone a gift of $10 for each new son and $9.50 for each new daughter. ("Girls in China aren't worth as much as boys," he would write in explanation to Adolph Hitler.)"

Of course, this man is either lying in his diary, or his diary is a complete fabrication. (Even though it was dredged out of his personal effects only when Iris Chang started investigating for her book)

"Besides the photos and films taken by eye witness. The 190-page official document sent to Berlin from the Nazi Embassy at Nanking was most revealing. The manuscript was recently released by Potsdam Archives in 1991, and it fully confirms the duration and magnitude of the massacre." (Nanking Massacre | Gallery VII (http://prion.bchs.uh.edu/~zzhang/1/Nanking_Massacre/gallery7.html))

The Nazis reported on it, since they could see it happen from their embassy.



I wonder what you will have to say about this.


Look, I don't mean to be condescending, but you come off as uneducated, ignorant of how the American political system works, ignorant of how the Chinese political system works, you do not know about how academic research is handled in journals, and you have the ability to ignore mountains of evidence in favor of a verdict that would preserve your worldview.

What is your age, IQ, and educational history, if I might ask?

I'm betting young, average, and either poor, or you go to substandard/mediocre/average schools. You likely have not gone to college yet, and you spend more time reading manga and fooling around on the Internet than you do studying, learning, reading, and developing your mind.

Please tell me that I am very, very wrong. (I would appreciate physical evidence, as you could be lying, and photos you show me could be faked)

Gunpla God
13 Mar 2008, 1:14 pm
the thread is about Japan and everyone seems to have skipped my point. I assume the book you refer to is the Rape of Nanking . In I believe the prologue or foreword or something the author says her parents told her never to forget Nanking.WHAT KIND O F ADVICE IS THAT ? remembering it wont bring the victims back and thats how total warfare is waged . for example , I live in Georgia - when sherman marched through he decimated infrastructure and ruined the economy. Even now tiough well hidden there are stil

SORRY CHARACTER LIMIT- signs of his campaign. but life goes on and we have prospered into modern times. and except for some people most dont cry remember the rape of Georgia! In conclusion yes it was horrible for those who experienced it but the survivors have one foot in the grave already. This whole never forget the past thing and culture of grudges has got to stop. sorry if this sounds hostile I dont mean it that way.

Solo
13 Mar 2008, 3:19 pm
Just because you forgive someone for their transgressions against you doesn't mean you forget.

Remember, he who does not learn from history is doomed to repeat it.

We must bear in mind the lessons of the past, even as we move into the future.

If we truly forgive one another, memories of our past mistakes should not get in the way of our future friendship.

Kioswan
13 Mar 2008, 5:04 pm
Just because you forgive someone for their transgressions against you doesn't mean you forget.

Remember, he who does not learn from history is doomed to repeat it.

We must bear in mind the lessons of the past, even as we move into the future.

If we truly forgive one another, memories of our past mistakes should not get in the way of our future friendship.Sadly many people would choose to not even learn about them in the first place. However most people seem to learn history, more than learn from it. Maybe it has something to do with never having experienced from it, but yeah, within the next 20 years we'll probably see lots of repeats.

So back to people having to forgive but not forget, it's the leaders who would rather have you always remember and never forget. Not all leaders, but there are certain ones. Yet the leaders themselves are often the ones who cause the mistakes of the past to happen again. It could have something to do with greed, or a hunger for power, but I'm not a leader at any position thus leaving the important decisions up to other people.

Probably none of us are in any real political position anyway, which doesn't put us in the best of spots to bring about change.

Gunpla God
13 Mar 2008, 5:20 pm
I dont think Nanking should be erased from the books because 1-we should honor the victims. and 2-those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. but sadly most seem to use it to hold hard feelings.

Mandrake
14 Mar 2008, 6:57 pm
I am very disappointed by the bias of some members here... I guess some egos are too big to change their opinions. I thank Solo for giving a strong argument in favor of the undeniably horrifying event in history that was the Rape of Nanking.

We all know racism can be found anywhere. We all should know that Japan is a country with very small population of foreign citizens living there. Their history shows to be a very strict culture that is still seen by their industry and education. We all know that is a human nature to fear or be suspicious of the unknown. When a person has very little contact with foreigners, they have no proper schema to follow and dont know how to act properly with them. Japan is a WHOLE CULTURE that has in the most part been isolated from foreign contact and if you get weird looks is because they can't think of a better reaction.

A great example of this is to see a Muslim woman walking in traditional Muslim attire walking around the mall. Would you dare not to stare? Would a common schema created by the media or other influences fall in your brain automatically? Would you treat her like any other American?

If you feel any of those feelings or react a similar way then you are basically like a Japanese staring at a foreigner. However, if you show hospitality then such schema will be changed into a more possitive one and thats what we should all do.

Mr.Anderson
15 Mar 2008, 12:23 pm
Would you treat her like any other American?

((Warning, non-contributional post below))

Erh, no. Because I don't treat people as any other American. I treat people as other people.

Arii Maehara
15 Mar 2008, 12:31 pm
((Warning, non-contributional post below))

Erh, no. Because I don't treat people as any other American. I treat people as other people.

whilst amonst peers and to one self one would claim the higher ground weither or not true as to not have to deal with the unpleasent thought of being a negative.

*walks out of room*

KC
13 Dec 2008, 12:04 am
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

japan is my home kawaii desu ne.

imma samuraiiiiiiiiii.

Konnichiwa, bitches.

™
13 Dec 2008, 12:14 am
This isn't the poc mr kc :o, don't post like that again or we'll have to do stuff to you, etc :p, You're warned, etc :o

KC
13 Dec 2008, 12:17 am
I was hoping to jump start this thread back to life.

zzz japan just wouldn't work.

™
13 Dec 2008, 12:22 am
Well, that other post didn't work either :o

Your God
13 Dec 2008, 1:19 am
Wow, today's the anniversary of the Nanjing Massacre.

71 years.

Tyroki
13 Dec 2008, 4:36 am
*Looks through the thread* Old thread is obviously old, but still.

I still find it funny that with all of the atrocities commited throughout history, America still feels buttraeped over a pair of towers XD

USA, Japan, USA, Japan. Both are pretty awful if you ask me. *Shrugs*

Yonathen
13 Dec 2008, 7:03 am
Well i'm going to Japan in april.
Really looking forward to it!
Japan is supposed to be one of the most safe and gentle countries in the world.

Miroku
13 Dec 2008, 8:10 am
If you believe that, I know of a bridge sitting on the East River you can get dirt cheap, Yon :rolleyes:.


Technically, nowhere is ever really safe. If anything, the attacks around the world in crowded locales should constantly remind us all of that sad fact.

Yonathen
13 Dec 2008, 8:53 am
I know that there is no such thing as totally safe.
I said one of the safest places

KC
13 Dec 2008, 4:55 pm
I know that there is no such thing as totally safe.
I said one of the safest places

and while you buy that bridge, come work with me in washington heights :p

Miroku
13 Dec 2008, 5:17 pm
and while you buy that bridge, come work with me in washington heights :p


Affordable housing is at a premium there these days too. Introduce him to someone who you know. ;)


I'd also like to see the country (Japan) with my own eyes, but that may never materialize. So, I'll have to be content with living vicariously through others' experiences.

Nani?
14 Dec 2008, 4:02 am
It's 3:00 am, and I'm drunk, soooo....rant. Still drunk enough to type straight, not enough to be coherent. And very tired. Falling asleep now....

/beginrant

I have mixed feelings about Japan. While I like the Buddhist philosophy, and the fact that it makes Anime, it also has a history of being downright stupid. I can think of few other cultures who interpret honor as a justification for suicide. Possibly the Mormons.

Anywho, let's turn our attention to the events of World War II, and the rape of Nanking. Or better yet, let's turn our attention to the Holocaust. Or the Purges in Russia. Or go back even further, the 20 million dead Native Americans under the Spanish. The enslavement of African Americans for hundreds of years. The seizure of American-Indian land. Further back still? Vlad the Impaler, 20,000 men on a pike in one day, thousands more over his lifetime as ruler. The oppression of the peasants and the majority of the population for so long the death count caused by their poverty is too vast for me to calculate.

Still further back, Israel's march through that area of the mediterranean, where they were told to massacre all those who stood in their way. Good god, take any battle and any conquering force in Ancient History, and you've got yourself a tragedy somewhere in there.

Besides having a lovely long list of events, this post has a point. What happened at Nanking was horrifying, yes. What happened in the Holocaust is horrifying, yes. But this doesn't make them tragedies, and it certainly doesn't make them something special that we should be celebrating with some sort of annversary announcement. How many people here were at the Rape of Nanking, the Holocaust, the Great Purges, the countless other massacres I listed? Anybody? No? Good. Then be quiet about it.

What's so difficult for us to understand? The Human Race isn't any different in any other region. If you wanted to, you could find worse massacres in any country in the world, with maybe the exception being Zimbabwe, because it's Zimbabwe. We're a species that specializes in killing ourselves, and we're very good at it. We're also very good at dealing with whatever psychological trauma SHOULD follow. We ignore it, call it a tragedy, and move on. We're a society bred for war, and when war happens, horrifying events aren't that far away.

It sort of adds a bit of fleshed out reasoning to Tyroki's ideas, doesn't it? It's not just USA and Japan, but the whole world. The whole world sucks, and it's going to keep sucking long after we're dead, because people are stupid. I hate to say it, but god it fits so welll.....People are phony. Can anybody ever really say to a survivor of the Holocaust "My god, I know exactly how you feel." No. We don't know what we feel ourselves, how do we expect to seriously help others? We can't!

So please, stop treating the events of history as anything other than what they are. They are events, dots on a timeline, nothing more, nothing less. They happened, we study them, and we learn from then. But we do not put them on a pedastel and call it a horrifying, shocking massacre. We call it a historical event.

/endrant

☼Pepe☼
22 Dec 2008, 6:26 am
I have to admit though, KC does have, to an extent, some vague, understandable point xD

It is starting to become a very common phenomena, that of love for everything Japan and its culture, but his main point here, I assume, is that through one's intense love of Japan, one loses his own cultural norms and develops xenocentrism. One cannot deny the effect of Japanese culture on many of our dear forumers on this site.

But the fact remains is that one should cherish their own culture. Speaking in Japanese is pointless if you're not in Japan. It merely brings about confusion not only to yourselves, but to those around you. Sure, you can love anime and still love your own culture. That doesn't make any culture superior to your own.

Like Tyroki and Nani pointed out, the whole world sucks! So why even bother praising a culture that you barely even know anything about? Why learn their language when it does not benefit you in the long run?

So go, play japanese video games, watch anime. But never forget your own culture. Accepting yourself is really the first step to being accepted by others :P

KC
22 Dec 2008, 3:43 pm
I have to admit though, KC does have, to an extent, some vague, understandable point xD

It is starting to become a very common phenomena, that of love for everything Japan and its culture, but his main point here, I assume, is that through one's intense love of Japan, one loses his own cultural norms and develops xenocentrism. One cannot deny the effect of Japanese culture on many of our dear forumers on this site.

But the fact remains is that one should cherish their own culture. Speaking in Japanese is pointless if you're not in Japan. It merely brings about confusion not only to yourselves, but to those around you. Sure, you can love anime and still love your own culture. That doesn't make any culture superior to your own.

Like Tyroki and Nani pointed out, the whole world sucks! So why even bother praising a culture that you barely even know anything about? Why learn their language when it does not benefit you in the long run?

So go, play japanese video games, watch anime. But never forget your own culture. Accepting yourself is really the first step to being accepted by others :P

*clap clap clap*

Truly a work of art. I agree .

Grey Fox
23 Dec 2008, 9:42 am
But never forget your own culture. Accepting yourself is really the first step to being accepted by others :P

So i should do like the other people in my neighborhood my age and beat up small kids, wear tracksuits and hoodies, and spit in peoples eyes for no reason and laugh about it? @[email protected]

☼Pepe☼
23 Dec 2008, 10:32 am
So i should do like the other people in my neighborhood my age and beat up small kids, wear tracksuits and hoodies, and spit in peoples eyes for no reason and laugh about it? @[email protected]

Neither should you commit suicide for doing bad in school :P


I said accept your own culture... I assumed not being an idiot was a given factor :scratch:

Grey Fox
23 Dec 2008, 10:51 am
Being an idiot IS the local culture, silly pepe ;P

KC
23 Dec 2008, 11:51 am
So i should do like the other people in my neighborhood my age and beat up small kids, wear tracksuits and hoodies, and spit in peoples eyes for no reason and laugh about it? @[email protected]

I do 3/4 of those things :l got a problem?

Your God
23 Dec 2008, 4:20 pm
I say we all chip in and buy Grey Fox a ticket to Japan were he can get the special honorary Japanese initiation ritual...http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2677/iconbukkakejv1.gif

But seriously GF is giving anime nerds a horrid name...could he really be a troll?

Grey Fox
23 Dec 2008, 4:38 pm
I just happen to be someone who doesn't exactly fit with the world around them.

KC
23 Dec 2008, 5:30 pm
I just happen to be someone who doesn't exactly fit with the world around them.

i'm bettin you mean you happen to be someone who don't leave their basement.

™
23 Dec 2008, 5:59 pm
Anyways, this isn't serious talk anymore, so imma move it to the jap subforum :o

Orca Misaki II
23 Dec 2008, 11:15 pm
Neither should you commit suicide for doing bad in school :P


Killing your brother over a Yankee's baseball cap isn't much better than that, Pepetastic.

☼Pepe☼
24 Dec 2008, 3:00 am
Being an idiot IS the local culture, silly pepe ;P

Oh, and seeking refuge in a culture totally unfamiliar with yours is your solution?

Sure, you may hate your own local culture, but tell me, is that really what being an american is? Is it so horrid that you must change your whole norms and folkways just for that?

I am willing to bet that that culture you are stating is merely a subculture within your own; same as being an otaku.

I'm not saying you should follow the rest of the idiots at school, I'm saying don't be an idiot to yourself. Don't tell yourself that Japan is the great and almighty country that craps out gold bars in the form of anime, among other related things. Tell yourself that "Hey! I'm an American! As an American, I am free to like anime, and I don't even have to act remotely Japanese to do so"

What few people realize is that by becoming what we perceive here as an Otaku is exactly the same as becoming a thuggie, or emo. It is basically following a subculture based on simple interests, and peer pressure.

But you don't have to do that. You can like heavy metal rock and do good in school. You can love star trek and beat up other weaker kids.

So hey, if you don't fit with the world around you, then you don't have to! That doesn't mean you have to find a whole 'nother world just to "fit in." Simple as that :P


Killing your brother over a Yankee's baseball cap isn't much better than that, Pepetastic.

Either way, giving isolated cases is a useless example :P I apologize for that.

MasterKentaroShakeManye
22 Feb 2009, 12:51 pm
kay meatwad

Grey Fox
22 Feb 2009, 1:13 pm
I just realised, pepe called me American!

>_<

MasterKentaroShakeManye
23 Feb 2009, 6:53 pm
kay meatwad

Your God
23 Feb 2009, 8:24 pm
I'm not saying you should follow the rest of the idiots at school, I'm saying don't be an idiot to yourself. Don't tell yourself that Japan is the great and almighty country that craps out gold bars in the form of anime, among other related things.

Interesting note, but has anyone else heard the story that at a Japanese waste management center they found specs of gold? Not in bar shape grant you but still.

CORRECTED - CORRECTED-Japan sewage yields more gold than top mines | U.S. | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUST8310320090130?rpc=64)


Tell yourself that "Hey! I'm an American! As an American, I am free to like anime, and I don't even have to act remotely Japanese to do so"

Something I do everyday.




And Gray Fox before you embarrass yourself anymore than you already have you really NEED to visit this site.

You're going to have to type the address because this site censored out part of it.

**** is NOT part of the name, you need to replace it with a certain F-word.

http://www.****edgaijin.com/

Grey Fox
23 Feb 2009, 10:33 pm
It's a bit late to come back to this but in abbsic, i live in a shitty little councill housing estate in a nowhere town, surrounded by chavs. Not to say, I'm hardly able to look normal in any walk of life, so instead of being british, I'm Grey Fox, and I say, think and decide what i want.

To be honest the last few times i ever talked to anyone in my local besides to say, "do you ever talk about anything other than 360?" I end up just getting shrugged off and ridiculed, I'm not going to change myself, and decide my country is worth never abandoning and staying in forveer until i die. I'm going to do what my family has for generations, I'm going to travel, and far, and often, and I'll likely die at least on a different continent to where iwas born.

To the original point of this thread, every country has imperfections in its past. The crusades for example, if you want a british example, is jsut the same. A stupidly large number of people killed for a stupid reason, in a time long enough ago that it doesn''t matter so much anymore.

IN reference to pepes earlier point and also to remove any real structure from this post, I don't like what i do because of peer pressure, if anything I exert peer pressure and nothing I've ever done has been because anybody said i should and certainly not because it was popular.

To sum up, I don't give a shit about most of the holes that can be picked in this post.